posted by Rampurple @ 1:22 AM
Well, RIP, but what about him? I could say a lot about him and the bigotry he and the church subscribes to. Besides, I never understood worshipping human beings. I don't know. I mean, I don't see why anyone should think more highly of him than of me or my neighbour, etc. Or mourn him more than they would mourn the death of some Paletinian.
And Marsden, for your knowledge:Are you aware that this Pope was pro-Palestinian? "The Vatican and the PLO signed an agreement on their relations, saying both view any unilateral decision affecting Jerusalem's special character as morally and legally unacceptable."So, it appears to me that you don't really like Christians with this latest comment. I'm sorry. I'm a secular person, but I just don't respect your blanket criticisms. It's ridiculous intolerance. That's the sort of attitude that will ensure no progress in the Near East.
And "you don't understand worshipping human beings"? Well, tell that to your Hizbullah friends when you join. You're telling me I have double-standards. Give me a break.out,
And before I go, from an Al Jazeera article:News of the pope’s death plunged the Holy Land into grief, with black flags in the traditional birthplace of Christ expected to usher in an official mourning period.Prayers were to be held in Catholic churches around Bethlehem, a town where the pontiff is remembered with fondness because of his millennium visit to Israel and the West Bank five years ago. To many Palestinian Christians, the pope was someone who identified with and supported their cause. "He was a true example of someone who defended human rights, who defended the hungry and the sick in the world, and who worked hard to protect the family," said Hanna Nasser, the town's Palestinian mayor. "He was also an example for interfaith cooperation. He was a clear supporter of the Palestinian issue and the Palestinian people and that is why he welcomed [late Palestinian leader] Yasir Arafat so many times to his palace."
Not being a religious person, I can still say that it's always sad when a person who advocated human right, and was the voice of people who could not make their voices heard passes away.And lim, my advice to you is just give it up. Why bother? When you present facts, and the arguments you hear in return are fallacies, red herrings, and pure stupidity, it's time to give up a lost cause.You think the Lebanese patriarch has a chance of being elected pope? That should tick a lot of people off...oh man, that would be the day :)
Liminal, I was not talking about his stance on the Palestinian issue, but on such things as gay rights, etc.Hezballah is about worshipping a human being? Huh? Did I miss something or what? I don't care what the Hezballah members believe in, or what you believe in for that matter. But I'm not about to worship an individual. I might follow orders but I will never worship any other individual, no matter what their political stance or ideological beliefs are. If I were one of those people, I would've been kissing "General" Aoun's feet like the Not-so-Lebanese not-so-Free not-so-Patriotic Movement members are doing.
Mars, I thought you meant individuals with faith. ..."worshipping human beings". Misunderstanding.I hate idolatry, but the Pope is being greived. So, looking at him like the average person is just silly.Temp, I dunno man. I think it's worth engaging even if I don't agree with somebody. If we don't engage, we'll get nowhere. Dialogue is always important. Even if it makes me want to hit the monitor.I'll never give up my friends. And you're all my friends. I don't care if I disagree with you here on the forum. I respect your opinions and hope you will express more of them here.I'm humbled by each of you.Thank you very much for letting me be a little part of this project.Peace,Lim.
Marsden, no religion encourages homosexuality. To my knowledge Muslims are anti-homosexuality as well. The reason religions are against it because homosexuality prevents child bearing an essential issue to all religions.As for worshipping human beings, we don't worship the pope. The pope represents Catholics around the world and this pope was loved since he tried all he can for developing countries, human rights, causes and so forth. He is respected for his good will. As for Tempest, the Lebanese patriarch is too old for papacy. He can vote since he is a cardinal but he is over 80 which does not make him eligible for being a pope.May his soul RIP. He was a good man.
Ram, you're half right. I already knew that he couldn't vote, because he was above 80, and now I just checked, and it turns out that he can't even enter the conclave (so I would imagine that means he can't be elected).Lim, thanks for keeping this thing going, man. And dialogue is the key to developing one's own intellect and reasoning skills,debating with someone who thinks that he can join Hizballah (as a non Shiite), who is pro-Syrian (how ignorant is that?!), who disrespects every single opposition leader because they are 'right-wing warlords', but to whom the fascistic radical Hizballah militia (who also actively participated in the war) is fine and dandy... debating with that kind of person is A FUTILE WASTE OF TIME
By the way, Hezbollah does revere human beings: Ali, Hassan, Hussein, the Prophet, Ruqaya, the house of the Prophet, etc. Shias are a lot more similar to Catholics than you think.Also, what was the response like for Hamas members when Sheikh Yassine and Rantisi died?What was it like when Khatami visited Lebanon? What would it be it be like if Nasrallah was killed or died?Oh, and while I'm at it, uhhh, Hariri? It's been pretty worshipful around here recently. But people - myself included - are starting to recall all of Hariri's corruption.
There is a tendency to point out the amazing qualities of a person - the one's we do not have - when they die. Of course, we remember the bad things.But I think, for any bad this Pope did, he made up for it millions of times over with the positives. Not supporting homosexual marriage is no reason to say that he was not incredible for helping to bring down the Soviet Union, for promoting human rights and sternly criticizing the US before the Iraq war, for visiting mosques and synagogues, for apologizing for the Crusades, and so many other things. What he has done has been fantastic for the world. I don't think we are as much revering him as a man as we are his inspiration. I aspire to be someone like him one day: a kind heart, but with firm affirmation.
I agree with you Leb profile, this is a Great Man and i don't think anybody can find something bad that he could have done. I am muslim, but i do love and respect him. He was the Pope of all the humanity: muslim, jews, chrystians, buddists...In 2005, we are losing one after one, each in his domain, personalities that are unable to be replaced in a near future.Let's pray for Him and also to have another Pope with the same human qualities.
May he rest in peace. I hope there will still be some "good guys" in this world of ours.
Marsden, no religion encourages homosexuality.I'm not talking about religions. I'm talking about individuals and worshipping them. I don't care if they encourage it or not. That's not the point. The point is, the Pope is a bigot, just like anyone who discriminates for no justifiable reason. To my knowledge Muslims are anti-homosexuality as well.Well I'm not a Muslim (or a Christian or a Jew or a follower of any religious group/ideology), so... Besides, my beef is not with a certain religion or another, religions are open to interpretation, it's institutions that I don't like. And the Catholic Church is one of those.As for worshipping human beings, we don't worship the pope.The Pope is supposed to be the medium between Catholics and God. In other words, he could be considered one of the disciples of Christ, as he is the 265th (or some other number) in the line. Besides, yes he might've spoken for the oppressed, etc., but keep in mind that many regular people do too. Rachel Corrie was one. I never saw so many Catholics cry for her. Or Tom Hurndall for that matter. It's not really about that. The Papacy still exists because it has always had followers who were willing to have the Pope sit in the Vatican and enjoy the luxury just because they believed he was the medium between God and "regular" human beings. Btw, Jesus mentioned no such thing as a Catholic church, etc. The Catholic Church is an institution, so its claims that the pope is the medium, etc., they are all created by that institution not by Christ.debating with someone who thinks that he can join Hizballah (as a non Shiite)Of course I can. You will see that I can in a few months.who is pro-SyrianI am not pro-Syrian. Get that right, please.(how ignorant is that?!)No more ignorant than your pro-American, pro-France, and pro-"Israel" stand.who disrespects every single opposition leader because they are 'right-wing warlords'I disrespect those who deserve disrespect. And so far Hezballah does not. True Hezballah also fought in the civil war, but so did others. What did the others do FOR Lebanon, not TO Lebanon? At least Hezballah did something. That is deserving of much respect. More respect than the "opposition" warlords will ever get from me (unless they start doing something FOR Lebanon rather than sitting in their palaces in the Chouf or elsewhere and mixing the pot with the American finger).but to whom the fascistic radical Hizballah militiaThe Hezballah may be radical or fascist, but it is no more fascist than the LF, Kata'eb, etc. who were responsible for many massacres in Lebanon, and who STILL have weapons. Who are they kidding? Who are YOU kidding?
Marsden... I wont discuss hizbullah or any other party with you because this is not the topic at hand here.1) "just like anyone who discriminates for no justifiable reason. " .... I already gave you his reason. To engourage birth. It's a part of nature for people to give birth. I am not anti-homosexual but I do expect the Pope to encourage homosexuality. Just like I expect the pope to be anti birth control... that does not mean I would be anti-birth control since I do not want to have a dozen kids of my own. I simply expect the Pope and any other leader (whether country leader/ political party leader) to say the same things.2) As for your comment about you being religious or not... I did not mention what religion you follow I was simply reminding you that the pope is a Catholic leader, therefore a religious person who exercises religious beliefs and ideologies therefore you can only compare him to such people.3) The pope is not supposed to be the medium between catholics and God. Get your information straight. The pope and all priests teach Catholics/ Christians the way of Jesus. The first pope was St. Peter who was a disciple of Jesus. Again, Catholics do not worship the Pope. No one prays to him or ideolizes him. At the moment people are praying FOR him. Just like people prayed for Hariri and still visit his grave praying for his soul. Those people do not worship Hariri. The pope represents over a billion Catholics around the world, which is a big percentage, therefore you should expect such a big deal about his death especially since he was considered a man of good will by people of all religions as well as athiests. You or I or anyone may not believe in institutions but we are capable in respecting people for their deeds. Each person has their own perspective. I might find him a good man for several reasons and you might consider him a horrible man for your own reasons. So far the only reason you gave to me is that he is anti-homosexual. As for other catholics or personalities who had spoken for the oppressed, keep in mind that the pope was a part of several issues. He was one of the major reasons that caused the fall of the Berlin wall and the fall of communism in the soviet union. He was the cause of Castro releasing 300 politcal prisoners. He defended the Palestenians, we was against the war in Iraq. These are only some of the minor things I can think off on the top of my head. Why didn't you mention mother theresa? She got a lot of attention when she died and she wasnt a pope.As for your other comments, those were not referred to me so I will not reply to them and would also like to remind you and the other commentators that this is not a political topic.I hope this clears some things to you and i hope I have succeeded in convincing you my own perspective which you are more than free to disagree with.
have a look at a photo from the netherlands -> when 20 years ago 'papa woytila' came to visit utrecht. http://www.2525.com/log/archives/2005/04/het_bezoek_van.html the dead pope was famous for his anti condoms, anti-abortion, anti-women and anti-gay rights; i'm sure he was just very conservative. but okay, if they will make (roman rumours) ratzinger next popo, (pOpus Dei) then the 'papapolacco' will just seem like a nice dream of the past, sweet and warm, a pope that supported 'people', the Big pope! and people will of course once again be very devotive ... (just forget f.e. about aids booming all over big mama africa)
For a country and a people that has been fucked up and ripped apart by religion.. it is amazing to me how much adoration and loyalty there is to organized religion.Scary
"There's so much one can say about him which makes it difficult to say anything at all."You got that right ;)And therein lies our whole conumdrum really. To say, or not to say, or to say it several ways.!
okay, so they did it and made as i expected pOpus Dei Ratzinger... (P2 also ... help!) I'd better read immediately that book of Tariq Ali now: 'The clash of fundamentalisms'
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