Thank You Administrators!

It has come to my attention today, that am no longer an administrator on this blog, without any prior notice... I would love to know the reason. I hope it is not a personal issue.


At Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:36:00 PM, Blogger aroundtheclock24_7 said...

I do not understand how can an administrator on LBF be eliminated without any voting from LBF members and contirbutors?

I thought this blog reflected and concerned everyone (contributors and members), and that it is our right to choose the people who would represent us.

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:02:00 PM, Blogger liminal said...

I did send maldorer an email about this matter. If he did not get it before, there was some problem. I'll resend it.
Administrators cannot harrass others. Simple as that...
This decision is not permanent, but we can discuss how we solve situations like this in the future...while setting up some system to punish admins who are not representing us well. This blog is not a well-oiled democracy machine. I'm sorry about this flaw, but we can get over this together through civil dialogue.

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:47:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

I would like to clarify a few things so I do not appear as being the one harassing others :)
First of all, I posted on the 14th September the picture of our former president Bachir Gemayel. I did also forbid any comments on my post because I didn't want to receive any insults, I only wanted to pay hommage to this man. We do live in a free and democratic country.
Then, gabrielf posted a comment on Mirvat's post entitled: "Are we still fighting" and used a rather vulgar language to talk about Bachir Gemayel.
I do not remember him linking his comment to any blog.
So I deleted his comment, because I didn't think it was appropriate, especially that neither the language nor the objective were polite and civilised.

Then, Eve commented and linked her comment to a blog called "les niouzes" to a post written on 14th September. On this post there were pictures of the 7 Al-Gemayel family members picturing them in a card game. The comments that followed attacked the symbols of our country whether u like those symbols or not. I will quote:"Vite vite, ou est la tombe de pierre "le grand", j'en peux plus je veux pisser, vite please". Translation: Quick , quick, where is the tomb of Pierre (gemayel) the "great", I want to piss on it, please! Another quotation:"quelle famille de merde" Translation: what a shitty family. And so on... you can check that link by yourself.
So, is this how a responsible administrator is supposed to behave? Linking LBF to trash?

Furthermore, I later commented on one of Bob's posts entitled: "Hezbollah Defensive Strategy" dated on 19th September 2006, so five days later. In my comment I addressed my words to Bob, in a very serious manner, then, Hilal decided to interfere, and Eve, for whatever reason, decided to back him up (backing a contributor against a fellow administrator). So she simply added fuel to the fire insulting me on more than one occasion, which worsened the situation between Hilal and I of course. You can all check the post for further details because I am sure most LBF readers and contributers missed it, otherwise they would have reacted.
Then, yesterday, on Jij's post, there was an Israeli blogger, namely Julia or Juila, that litterally attacked lebanese leaderships... Jij first suggested to delete her comment as he called upon the administrators of this blog to react, I answered him back saying that everything would be taken care of..(refer to that post if needed). Then this same Juila commented under a different nickname, again insulting and dealing with a subject that was far far away from the aim and subject of the original post. Then I decided to delete her comment, because she had proved her point before and there is no use of adding oil to the fire. I realised that I couldn't because I was removed as an administator.

The point is, we should take a step back to see the truth from both sides, and if the owners, administrators and contributors of this blog find Eve's linking to "the niouzes" blog acceptable, then allow me to say I refuse to have any link with this blog.
I always believed that there should be limits and if somebody where to take charge of a public blog, he should have the courage and wisdom to take matter into his own hands and delete comments when necessary. Lest, we should find ourselves facing floods of useless comments from anybody and this blog would turn into a mere news bulletin posting outdated news. Much like what happened during the war.
Last but not least for now, I do not know who removed me as an administator, but I sure hope it was you Liminal. In any case, if you consider Eve's behavior normal and if you insist on keeping her comment in which she linked to that blog, I would find myself obliged to renounce on being administrator of this blog, because then you I would be working against my own principles.

P.S: Liminal, I prefer we keep the conevrsation here, that way am sure am receiving all the data, because my yahoo account has expired and am sure I didn't receive your mail.


At Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:56:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

"if somebody were to"* (paragraph 6, line 1)

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:15:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

"renounce being" (paragraph before last, line 4)

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:57:00 PM, Blogger Assaad said...

Discovering that contributors were not consulted about Maldoror's issue is something i REGRET too much. It seems a personal action. Nobody has the right to act like an owner of this blog.
I ask the "Administrators" of this blog to make a vote about Maldoror's case or to give him all the rights he had before.

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:59:00 PM, Blogger Assaad said...

It seems "It is" a personal action

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:07:00 PM, Blogger arch.memory said...

Maldoror, I think this post (and the fact that you re-dated it so it's on top) is very unbecoming of you. I do not think that this is the appropriate forum to discuss this dirty laundry; we have an e-mail list for internal administrative matters. Regardless of who changed your status or why, the attitudes that you are displaying here, and the liberties that you are taking, seem to me to only justify the move.

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:08:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

- You are twisting the facts.
- As far as i remember, gabrielf didn't include any insult in his comment. I am pretty sre of that. He sticked to his political opinion and if I am not wrong, he was criticizing the title of your post (the dream) and linked back to that post. Linking back is very common and happened before by Israeli commentators. Why didn’t you object on that? As far as I know not all Lebanese have the same opinion about Bashir Jmayyil. So this topic can be discussed.
- As far as I know, in the war time, no administrator had the right to delete a comment until this was discussed on the old email list.

- The comments are found there under bob's post:
1- You did not address your comment towards Bob.
2- I put a comment on the same topic you talked about d linked you to a related article.
3- When you asked me why I'm being offensive against everyone to prove my point. I don't know the standards of offense you follow but it seemed you found disagreement on opinions as being offensive. I was not sure and asked you back and then your insults began:
4 - Through all your insults, I never insulted you back. Now if you consider sarcasm insulting then add it to the offensive issue. But this went beyond limits by your “birds” comment with all what it signifies.
5 - I heard you had an opinion about Palestinians that you declared n the bloggers meeting, I simply asked y about it, your response was a series of humiliation. Now, If you can't hold your word that u said in the meeting, it's your problem not mine. Every body makes mistakes as you said to mirvat

- I didn't understand the difference between backing administrator and backing a contributor. I think we are all on the same levels and administration is just a matter on how to rule a blog.
- About eve, She didn't add fuel to fire, simply because you began the personal insults with talking about my IQ. Moreover I would like to remind you of your response to "one on the other side" who seems to be Israeli (I am not sure). In your response you addressed him telling that I have no reason. I thank you for that and I will add it to the other insults you directed towards me. Now I guess the "fire" by then would have cooled if any, but you kept going with your insults.
-Eve was criticizing your way of managing things (deleting comments). I would like to remind you all that even during the war time we were having discussion on this issue (moderating or deleting after publishing and what to delete). A voting that included administrators as well as contributors.
- This will be my last response to you maldoror on this issue, but I still want to know your opinion on Palestinian people. And this thing doesn't make me a Syrian agent ( as your "Mou" implied in your comment). This is a pure humanistic issue. Now, if you want to ignore my question, I will believe that what you really meant what you said.

At Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:21:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

I have nothing to say to you.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 2:21:00 AM, Blogger Maldoror said...

Considering the facts, I have decided to withdraw myself from LBF.
I believe I have made my point clear for all to read. I no longer want to be part of this mascarade.
I have nothing more to add except that i would like to be removed from the contributor's list, too. I do not want LBF to link to my site. Thank you!
As for my posts, well I have deleted most of them....I will leave you the rest :)
Hope one day your blog will be a well-oiled democracy machine, you should be careful though who you have at the helm of your ship ;)

Btw, "this decision is not permanent, but we can discuss..", "while setting up some system to punish admins who are not representing us well."
Good luck! You are doing a heck of a job ;)

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:39:00 AM, Blogger Eve said...

first, administrators are not voted out because they were not voted in in the first place. that is to answer your question ATC. They are changed periodically to give everybody the chance to participate in this process, and due to the circumstances which the forum is going through.

Second of all, this decision was discussed internally between administrators (as all administrative issues normally are), and Maldoror was, in fact, sent an email about it. Since he's claiming otherwise, we will list some of the reasons behind Maldoror's abusing of his powers as an administrator, to ensure they are well received this time:

1- taking the liberty of altering contributors' posts, without taking their opinion, or informing them, through a private means of communication first.

2- erasing comments without proper reason (non-insulting materials). Even during war, comments from everyone have been kept (unless in the presence of insults); the diversification in opinions have led to interesting debates; the decision of moderating comments itself was thoroughly debated in the blogger list first. So, it is not a reason to start erasing them if they were not comforming with one administrator's political views. e.g. Gemayel may be a respectable leader to Maldoror, true, but he is one to be criticized according to Gabrielf. both opinions are welcomed.

3- a comment of this sort is considered unacceptable or degrading from an administrator: "Someone from the other side, Don't try reasoning him man, it is useless ;)" or "Cry-baby Hilal" etc..
if im an administrator, it doesn't mean im obliged to back a fellow administrator in case he's not acting as one (as Maldoror's suggested). it means taking the right decision even when friends expect you to back them and hate you for not doing so (which unfortunately have happened several times before). In any case, Maldoror, i think you owe it to the contributors (like hilal above) to answer their questions on this issue. after all, you've decided to bring it into light on this forum.

Based on this, I'm sorry that ensuring a healthy administration of the forum is being viewed as giving in to personal issues. However, Maldoror is free to stay or leave. we will surely be delighted if he looks at things objectively and go on with contributing in this forum. But we will understand if he prefers not to. thank you.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 6:34:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

No you know that you are only authorized to praise Nasrallah and the resistance on this so-called Lebanese blog.

I remember that a guy called Ahmad posted a cartoon on that same depicting the Israelis as Nazis. I said, litteraly, that 'this kind of comparisons should be better left to Ahmadinejad'.

My comment got deleted. No explanatons.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 6:37:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Arch-memory, do you have anything against transperancy?

Have you studied PR at Haret-Hreik university?

If you have nothing to hide, discussing the matter publicly shouldn't bother you.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:16:00 AM, Blogger a h m a d said...

@Vox Populi:
I believe you are refering to this post. You can see that your comment is still there.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:52:00 AM, Blogger liminal said...

I sent it to your hotmail account, not your yahoo address.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:01:00 AM, Blogger arch.memory said...


I have nothing against transparency, but I do believe in propriety. (And I'm not the one hiding, with no name or location on my profile, am I?) I wasn't suggesting ending this discussion, but rather moving it to the mailing list which, if you are a Lebanese blogger with an interest in this blog, you would be on.

And no, I did not study PR at Haret-Hreik university, not that I see the point to your stupid petty remark (or that there is such a university in the first place; but of course, you would know...) I studied Biology at the American University of Beirut and Architecture at Syracuse University; what did you study and where? (But then again, I don't really expect an answer from someone who's sole identifiers are "Astrological Sign: Pisces" and "Location: The Internet".)

And if you have read any of Bob's posts, you'd see that criticizing Hezbollah is alive and kicking on this blog. But you aren't one for factual accuracy, now are you (as evidenced by Ahmad's remark above)? Besides, who on earth do you think you are to even question how Lebanese this blog, or anyone on it, is?

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:11:00 AM, Blogger aroundtheclock24_7 said...

WOW, I have really missed a lot during the past couple of hours...

HI all please bare with me the long post but being Miss UN i cannot just stay quite, so here it is...

Thank you for your reply, i really appreciated it. On the other hand, please note the following: "Administrators cannot harrass others." (where were you during the war-period? This blog was being abused to the last minute of war by harrassments of administrators and contributors to each other and to other visiting people to this blog). I cannot even start listing the comments for it would take a long post. I have personally discussed this matter with EVE more than five to six times officially. And that is when i suggested that EVE should put the "Disclaimer" you see on this page for I, nor others, wanted to be represented by the HARRASSING comments which were taking place at that time. Then came the matter of the long non-ending amount and length of posts. And that is when i spoke up again with Eve, and when i saw that nothing had been done for she couldn't control it, i sent the official email to our list and still the issue wasn't handled properly by the administrators and it was taken foregranted and forgotten. So i decided to step aside and just be a contributor but no more a person who worries about the well-being of this blog that should REPRESENT US LEBANESE.)

"to discuss THIS dirty laundry;", wouldn't you call this a bit harrassing to another administrator or even a contributor. At least keep your comment clean when you are asking others to keep this blog clean. Besides i am glad that Maldoror wrote that on the blog for he really grabbed everyone's attention and gave others "like me" the chance to speak up and be heard for ONCE seriously.

Why do you care what Maldoror thinks of Palestinians? Innou whatever he thinks is the least of your concerns so why do you keep on asking him that question, over and over and over again? Ya3ni for me it is like asking you what do you think of the Syrians? I will get nothing from your answer to me, for i really respect whatever you think of anyone, and i am not going to change that for it will never effect me in any way or another. Both your or Maldoror's replies would do is get a bunch of comments and posts due to the flow of events recently, but nothing else would be gained (just additional useless hatred).

Before i say anything to you i should be really honest and fair by saying "Chapeaux Bas" for all the work that you did for this blog especially during the war-time, it was really appreciated. But i should be honest too by saying that an Administrator should represent all contributors and that this is what makes you different. You shouldn't have taken anyone's side in the case of Maldoror and Hilal. I was REALLY shocked when i read your following comment
"Hilal, yi leih ma 3refet, one is entitled to dazzinet disagreements, w shi 3 agreements, w 5 noss noss 3ala kil post. w 2illa min ballesh nem7eh comments! :)"

It was very unappropriate of a "RESPONSIBLE Administrator" to HARRASS her fellow "Responsible Administrator" by mocking his actions of deleting unwanted comments. The language you have used was very sarcastic not to mention that with your "noss noss" reply you made my point innou the Official email i sent concerning the amount of posts on LBF was not taken seriously and is being used to harrass others.

Then to make things worse, you added "sorry Hilal, 2ata3tillak hadithak, khallina nerja3 lal moufid :p"??? Did you mean that what Maldoror was saying is useless and that it is nothing to worry about ??? Ya3ni in other words you did what Maldoror did with Hilal when he told the guy "don't try reasoning him man, "; so how is this different?

On the other hand kamein, i went to the link which you directed people to after Maldoror erased GabrielF's comment. Did you check the comments on that page EVE? I am sure you didn't for if you did you would have noticed that they mock everyone from Sheikh Saad to the Jmayel family etc. (not to mention the language used)and i am sure you as an Administrator and an UN-POLITICAl person wouldn't have linked it to LBF neither mention it to any other blog.

Take it easy shway w i am sure we can all be "civilised" and work things out for the best of ALL LEBANESE BLOGGERS for that is who we are. When we first joined this blog we all knew on a certain level that WE ALL COME FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS and BELEIFS and that we should ALL respect that. In the case of the Bachir Jmayel Family, although i hate politics and all politicians, but i personally appologise on behalf of all contributors and administrators for we all respect each other's opinions and beliefs.

Thank you all for baring with me and really i appologise in advance if i had offended anyone unintentionally but i SERIOUSLY felt that these things should have been said. I am a member of lots of groups, blogs, committees, and organizations. And it really aches when i see that we as LEBANESE are the least organised among all although we might be the "smartest" among all others, with all due respect to everyone.

Thank you and May God Bless you all.

ps: Please ignore any grammatical or typo mistakes for i do not want to erase and republish in case i found anything in my comment.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:26:00 AM, Blogger francois said...

a pure illustration of the lebanese problem:

misconfiguration of the mutual understand and non communication

people add oil on fire and so on...

from an outsider point of view, it really give you a bad image, all of you should clean your dirty stuff in a private way.

however this reminds me of an older issue about what should be posted or it like 5 monthes ago

guys there s a life outside blogs, chats and internet, all of you should learn to be cool and not to care about this virtual thing

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:06:00 AM, Blogger aroundtheclock24_7 said...


This is a pure illustration of any organization in life. So it isn't something unusual. If each of us didn't care in a way or another for the well-bieng of this blog we wouldn't have cared for it just like what you asked us to.

I am an extra sociabale person in real life and i have to admit too that i have met most of the contributors and administrators on this blog in person and i am PROUD to be with them anywhere they go even with all the conflicts of opinions and beleifs. Trust me you are missing a lot.

We all have our own REAL life but we also use the Virtual life as a run away from the real one not knowing that at a certain time the virtaul life becomes a part of our real life. Which explains why you're here on this blog while you can be outside doing somthing REAL.

Hope someday we'll meet in REAL life :P

Best wishes to all.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:36:00 AM, Blogger Maldoror said...

Take a hike and stay cool :) And maybe later you can tell us about ur life outside blogging, chats and internet :)

Two reasons why I still haven't received your mail:
1- You are spelling maldoror wrong it is with an "o" not an "e" in the end.
2- You are not on my hotmail safe list.
Whichever cases, I think I got the message thank you.

I think this should remind you of the "al-fil" incident, am kind of surprised how you didn't mention it. Do you remember how all administrators stood up to defend your liberty of expression? ;)


If administrators are changed periodically, then I believe it is high time for you to step aside, or do you consider yourself irreplacable?

1- Next time, I suggest you send Israeli's warnings to their personal email, that you are going to delete their comments :) that should work just great!

2- Define insult Eve. Doesn't your link to that blog represent an insult to you and to your Lebanese feeling of patriotism and belonging?

3- No you are not obliged to back a fellow administrator :) You see this example clearly in our daily political life, why should you be any different than your role models?

4- Eve, you are the last one to be talking about a healthy administration. Please spare us!
For details and in case you are doubting, please refer to my first comment on this post and to Around the Clock's second comment here, too.
In case, you still do not see it. Well, I won't be surprised it was, is and will be the root of many problems to come. Cheers!

5- Objectiveness. Well, you should be the last person talking about this, too. I believe that when a comment contains both English and Arabic, it only reflects a state of anger or desdain, for it is coming truly from the heart, without any translation and work from the mind.

Will continue this later.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:31:00 PM, Blogger AbdulKarim said...

It is obvious that the problem here is a lack of clear set of rules and procedures to run this blog and to mitigate differences.What I suggest (being a concerned Lebanese reader of this blog) is that there should be clear written set of rules that clearly define the following:

1-What are the administartor's responsibilities towards :
a- His fellow administrator
b- Contributors
c- The blog

2-A clear defined mechanism for the following:
a- Deleting or editing comments
b- Nominating administrators or denominating them
c- Penalising procedures

3-Procedures to define what constitutes an offense, and a breach of liberty (for the purpose of item 2(a)), taking into consideration the diversity of political,religeous, and ethnic background of the Lebanese Bloggers.

I suggest that as a first step, take this discussion offline as this realy harms the integrity of this blog. Try to meet up in some place to discuss the differences in an open, rational, civilised manner.

4- A procedure to resolve and mitigate differences

Maldoror, i think you are acting with emotions. Please consider your decision.The same applies to the others.

Peace and Respect to all


At Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:43:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Hum strange. This must have been a cache problem. Please accept my apologies.

Don't misunderstand me. I was deeply opposed to Israel's (and Hezbollah's) actions, but I think that nazi comparisons (applied to Israel or any other country) are immature.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:12:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

Yislam timmak :)
Well, good luck convincing administrators with these set of rules. :) I have always talked about this.. but it seems there is no use trying to convince anybody.

Well, I am "acting on emotions", but believe me I know what I am saying :)

I might reconsider my decision, under very specific circumstances. But I think am only saying it to be nice to you, because the way things are being run here, I do not think so.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:36:00 PM, Blogger arch.memory said...

@ ATC:
I don't mean to beat a dead horse to death, but I really don't see how my comment was less than "clean". And please tell me, how is taking the discussion to an e-mail list rather than a public forum harassment? Besides, you are on that e-mail list, and so you, and everyone on it, would have had just as much of a chance to speak up and be heard seriously.

@ Abed:
Thanks for the valuable feedback; it will certainly be taken into consideration.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:31:00 PM, Blogger Charles Malik said...

Abdulkarim offer excellent recommendations.

This affair does seem to be a number personal battles laid on top of a lack of policy. Given the recent intense arguments during and after the war, it's understandable that now would be the time in which such personal battles and insults come to light.

Basically, LBF administrators are free to act whimsically: deleting comments, changing posts, and removing administrators as they see fit.

I've never had a problem with this, but it is now quite clear that many others feel greatly burdened and are willing and dedicated enough to take some action to rectify the situation through creating a procedure that will limit what currently appears to be arbitrary actions.

Like Arch.Memory wrote, the procedural discussion should move to a private forum in which those most interested can directly participate. This might require making public the announcement of this dialogue so that those who are not already members of the email list can join the discussion should they choose. Obviously, this discussion should be limited to administrators and contributers to the blog.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:41:00 PM, Blogger Charles Malik said...


I hadn't read this:

"I want to watch your newly born baby being torn to pieces in front of your helpless eyes by a very "inaccurate" katiusha missile."

It seems like you are vivid to an extent greater than other contributors.

We must separate the discussion of administrator policy from the discussion of Maldoror's removal, from Maldoror's claims against Eve for linking to material to which he objected, and from any other specific case.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:49:00 PM, Blogger Charles Malik said...

On closer viewing, however, Eve doesn't seem to have done anything offensive by linking to the site. She was referring readers to the site Gabrielf had referred to in his deleted comment.

Obviously, by doing this, she stepped on Maldoror's toes, but the act was not offensive to the website as a whole.

I often make incredibly critical comments about Lebanese leaders (rarely are they sectarian or personal), and I believe that right should be defended. Maldoror, you draw a good comparison to Ahmad's post about al-Fil.

However, such "acceptance" of critical material should be across the board. Which means that people would be allowed to be critical of the Gemayels or Muawads or Franjiehs or Nasrallahs, if they are critical without using personal invective.

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:52:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

It is very offensive charles...

At Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:56:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

Btw, i do not remember Gabrielf linking to it. If he did, this would only justify my action. But I believe it was because of the language he used and the fact that I didn't want comments on my post, which is my right.
P.S: He commented on somebody else's post.

At Monday, September 25, 2006 10:40:00 AM, Blogger aroundtheclock24_7 said...

I don't either want to beat a dead horse to death, so i will only say that i would be more than glad to move this discussion to the bloggers list if it would be taken into consideration and worked upon not only left as a suggestion.

I think the ideas suggested by AbdulKarim are exactly the ideas i have spoken about verbally with Eve long time ago but two people cannot change everything.

Therefore i will be more than glad to help build up and organize LBF with you and others on the list.

At the end of the day we are all working for the best of this blog that is representing us LEBANESE.

Thank you and have a good day.

At Monday, September 25, 2006 12:07:00 PM, Blogger Assaad said...

Isn't time now to change the administrators of the LBF..? with all my respect to the actual ones, i don't know how they are choosen and how long they can stay!!!!

At Monday, September 25, 2006 2:07:00 PM, Blogger hashem said...

Ok....It's been a long and painful journey to read these comments to a post that shouldn't have been posted.

Maldoror- your post is so inappropriate on here....this is a forum to share our ideas and reflections about Lebanon and internal lebanese issues, and not personal annoying issues like this. The proper channel for this was to email your fellow administrators and discuss this is a more private manner, and not expose our problems to everybody.
Your action here is just childlish and unresponsible.
I will refrain from commenting more since this is not the place for it.

At Monday, September 25, 2006 4:06:00 PM, Blogger Maldoror said...

Are you in love or just angry?
Anyway, I do not see anything IRResponsible nor childish thing in what I said :)
Have a nice day.

At Monday, September 25, 2006 4:15:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At Monday, September 25, 2006 4:39:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At Monday, September 25, 2006 5:29:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

discussion is moved to the yahoo groups.

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