2.9.06

A war that brought them nothing but devastation

Another article, this time from the Washitgton Post by Charles Krauthammer, the author argues that Hezballah did not win saying that “Nasrallah's admission, vastly underplayed in the West, makes clear what the Lebanese already knew. Hezbollah may have won the propaganda war, but on the ground it lost. Badly.

True, under the inept and indecisive leadership of Ehud Olmert, Israel did miss the opportunity to militarily destroy Hezbollah and make it a non-factor in Israel's security, Lebanon's politics and Iran's foreign policy.

Nonetheless, Hezbollah was seriously hurt. It lost hundreds of its best fighters. A deeply entrenched infrastructure on Israel's border is in ruins. The great hero has had to go so deep into hiding that Nasrallah has been called the underground mullah.

Most important, Hezbollah's political gains within Lebanon during the war have proved illusory. As the dust settles, the Lebanese are furious at Hezbollah for provoking a war that brought them nothing but devastation -- and then crowing about victory amid the ruins.”

You can find the whole article on my Blog

Peace

38 Comments:

At Saturday, September 02, 2006 12:58:00 PM, Blogger Xylocaine said...

Most lebanese know that....we only need Hizbulla to admit it!!!

ILa AYN??? ;)

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 2:26:00 PM, Blogger chris coughlin said...

Charles Krauthammer is the biggest proIsrael neocon in the world

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 2:33:00 PM, Blogger gabrielf said...

hehe ila ayn????

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 2:44:00 PM, Blogger BOB said...

So let me get this straight every author that says that Hezballah did not win ( and if you read this crafully it was clear that according to the author Israel too did not win) is a pro Israeli neo con???

Peace

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 3:54:00 PM, Blogger jij said...

bob should really take it easy on the kool aid.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:08:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

BOb,
this is what Wikipedia says about him:

"Charles Krauthammer (born March 13, 1950), is a neoconservative American columnist and commentator best known for coining the phrase Bush Derangement Syndrome to describe opponents of President George W. Bush. [1] He supports American unilateralism and the use of military force, condones the use of torture in some circumstances, and advocates the construction of a fence along the entire length of the U.S.-Mexican border.

Krauthammer appears regularly as a guest commentator on Fox News. His print work appears in the Washington Post, Time Magazine, The Weekly Standard and other international publications. Readers frequently take exception to his positions, generating heated debate in letter-to-the-editors columns."

more over:
"He has also received a number of awards for his commentary related to religion, including the People for the American Way’s First Amendment Award for his New Republic essay "America's Holy Wars." [12] in 1985, and the Guardian of Zion Award of Bar-Ilan University in 2002"

now:
The Guardian of Zion Award is an annual award given since 1997 to Jews who have been supportive of the State of Israel. It is awarded at the Ingeborg Rennert Center for Jerusalem Studies at Bar-Ilan University, where the prize recipient gives the keynote address."

so no, not every author that says that Hezballah did not win is a pro Israeli neo con.

but have atleast to be sure whom are u referring to before support ur taking by his sayings.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:19:00 PM, Blogger jij said...

hilal I am afraid u are asking too much of our friend BOB. U actually want him to put things in context, even think little about what kind of agendas and people he is advocating. I am familiar with the Arabic tendency of transforming defeats into imaginary victories, but this pathetic, provincial attempt to turn Hezbollah's amazing humiliation of the IDF into a defeat is just too much. March 14 are the scum of the earth, everyday this belief grows stronger in me.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:46:00 PM, Blogger BOB said...

jij

Thank you a lot.
you show your worth by the way you respond, especially by using insult.

So I think the perfect way to deal with you is to ignore you, until you learn to have a proper discussion.

Hilal,

So he is another neo-con I accept that, but as with the previous one there is part of his article that are true, and others that are not.
So you can't just dismiss what he wrote just because he is a neo-con. You see I believe that is one of our problems, the author, his political stance, his nationality, religion or even race are secondary to what he wrote. So before pointing out that he is a neo-con, his article should be read and discussed.
if I have to check out every author and dismiss what he write based on his personality or his rational I ll never read any opposite point of view, I ll only limit myself to people who think like me, and I refuse to do that...

Peace

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:52:00 PM, Blogger jij said...

yes you do that BOB. "The author's political stance is secondary to what he wrote"... hahahahahahahaha

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:04:00 PM, Blogger Lirun said...

interesting perspective..

i tend to raise an eyebrow when i read foreign opinions about how lebanon supposedly feels.. just as i do when people tell the world how we as israelis think or feel..

these people have no clue and claim to be objective just because they are detached..

having said that - in this case - i hope his words to represent a portion of lebanese society

wishing us all peace

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:11:00 PM, Blogger BOB said...

jij

I ll make an exception this time and respond...

Let us assume that this neo-con or any Israeli author write a very convincing article backed with logic and example I should not accept it because of what they stand for?

Why not take the opposite example: a pro Iran guy write another convincing article I shouldn't accept it??

So I first look at what the author wrote, its logic, consistency and then I may look him up. And by the way in logic studies trying to undermine a theory, or idea using the author’s stance, person, race or religion is a major flaw called Ad Homonym

laugh it up

peace

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:11:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

Bob,
this article should be read and discussed if u really find it worth discussing bush's opinions!
what's interesting about it? these opinions of such neo-cons are clearly known from ages.

I read everything bob, it's about promotion . if u add this ARTICLE to the previous ONE, it would give an odd view.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:45:00 PM, Blogger Emil , Jerusalem said...

Unfortunately , I've to agree with the following sentences :

>True, under the inept and indecisive leadership of Ehud Olmert, Israel did miss the opportunity to militarily destroy Hezbollah and make it a non-factor in Israel's security, Lebanon's politics and Iran's foreign policy.

-For that there is a wide movement now to appoint an investigation commision .Also reserve soldiers who took part in the last conflict demand the resignation of PM , Defense Minister and the Chief of Staff.

But of course the responsibility of the last conflict is of Hizballa , not only for starting the conflict , but also exposing the civilians and hiding after them.

I recommend to read a post from another Lebanese blog . It fits competely my views :
http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/2006/08/in-words-of-villagers_26.html

Also I see , that Lebanese bloggers are fluent with Israeli politics. Whom would you like to see as the next PM of Israel ?

Wishing peace to all
Emil

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:42:00 PM, Blogger Lazarus said...

BOB,

ignoring his background for a second - what is logical about his article, and what evidence does he use to back up his positions? all he uses is rhetoric.

- l.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 6:55:00 PM, Blogger hashem said...

Bob,
This is the third, maybe the fourth, article you post wanting to prove one thing: "Hezballah did not win".
Leik, ra7 nokhlas ba2a?
Is it that you listen to "almanar" tv 24/7, that you feel you need to be fixated at this repeated more and more idea.
Khayye Bob... in wars, all lose, espicially in the middle east, where the sitiuation is so complicated and tight that violence and wars proved nothing but futile. Ok....I think this was presented, re-presented, and I would say discussed in details, by alot here.
yalla....time to move on?!
Time to turn back at our country and see what it needs to preserve a very fragile unity, if it exists at all?!
Time to heal the injured, and help the displaced, and concentrate on helping the country get out of the misery the Israeli grudge inflicted on it?!
Time to work to remove the injust seige the israelis putting, and largely proud of, over our land, water, and air!
Time to feel with this Lebanon, that needs the help of all its people to help.
AND at the same time, discuss why this happened, and how, and ways to avoid it in the future, but in a more open way than the stupid stupid stupid discussion who won, and nobody caring who lost.
Discuss why the "problem" of Hizballa is their from the first place, and why our country's army is among the weakest in the whole world. Why is it that our country has no a strategic defense plan that we all trust, and we keep pointing fingers at each others whenever something happens.
How can we get the Lebanese to agree on who is a friend, and who is not.

Bass ya Bob, when you talk, and post articles, I want to feel I'm reading to a Lebanese....not an outsider or a totally objective person. Ya Bob in this you are not out...you should stand by Lebanon, and think if I'm posting this, am I helping support Lebanon, or just promoting well-known-to-bised opinions. Opinion that if I want bto hear, and I do every now and then, I would turn to fox news, or washigton post..etc, and not the LBF. LBF hjas to present their opinion once, twice...bass kel marra?
Shu is it a forum for all these neo-conservatives, that have enough money, and media, that they don't need our help to promote their one-sided opinions!

Ba3deen...keef ya3ni "the author, his political stance, his nationality, religion or even race are secondary to what he wrote"...walla shu? This is naive khayye Bob...politically and logically naive...you should read each opinion in the context of who said it, and in what circumstances, and more importsant, how credible his comments are....or good luck figuring out what to believe in a world exploding with information, and opinions all over.
When I read you, I wanna know if you are a Lebanese or an Israeli, or maybe an American who knows nothing of the outside world.
If I get a medical advice, it matters to know if it's from a doctor, and sometimes, it matters to know his reputation, and how people think of him...no?
Plz Bob...take it easy...and whoever whispering in your ear that hizballa won...Hizballa won that you feel you need to refute more and more and more...just ignore him. Relax....kelna Lebnaneyyeh....and we all want the best for our country. I hope the discussions here will reflect this.

w 3a ra2yak...peace....in our minds, in our behavior, and in our country.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:01:00 PM, Blogger Mirvat said...

In Jij's words all the neo-cons are the 'scum of the earth' and i don't have to believe a word they write. when this is the same policy that lead to iraq and the same ideology that advocates that arabs are not capable of democracy i don't trust anything they defend or portray. if by experience alone, i learn that everything they want us to shy away from might actually be good for us.
the same experience tells me not to trust anything BOB writes or refer to because by now i know where he stands politically. jij did comment on the article by the way.

i see you're fixated on the idea of who won.. the israelis wanted to cach in politically on a military gain they didn't achieve.. that didn't work, now the propaganda is turning on the lebanese pushing them to undergo a reform based on military loss that they didn't endure.. it's sad to see that you're falling for it BOB. yes lebanon lost, the balance of power, the lack of, predicted that we're going to endure the biggest physical loss. but HA won. don't forget that :)

you're going to tell me... you chose to attack me personally... as you did before..
i see you take a defensive position against everyone (hilal, jij), so i don't worry that i'm being insulting as you said to me before.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:06:00 PM, Blogger Mirvat said...

and thank you hashem for finally saying what's on our minds :)

keef hal ernesto ma3ak lyom?

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 7:08:00 PM, Blogger Lazarus said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 9:39:00 PM, Blogger hashem said...

Mirvat,
Ernesto is being mild so far....inshalla ydall heik....light rain....:)

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 10:40:00 PM, Blogger BOB said...

Hashem,

You said:
“AND at the same time, discuss why this happened, and how, and ways to avoid it in the future, but in a more open way than the stupid stupid stupid discussion who won, and nobody caring who lost.”
You are right about that but to start these discussion the issue that we won must be addressed, so that in the future no one will ever think of going into a similar fight again because we “won” this one.

About standing by Lebanon, for me what I am doing is exactly that! I choose Lebanon but as always we do not agree on what define our poor country. For me I would like my country to be a modern, secular, democratic, peacefully and neutral country ( we paid our dues for all the causes Arab and otherwise in the past decade, I think our country deserve so peace at last)
And here allow me to ask you, that if you are so keen to defend and stand by it Lebanon and its people I did not see any comment out of you when Jij just called a part of the Lebanese people “scum of the earth”. So you get so irked up by my referral of an article and you let an insult to all these Lebanese citizens pass without a tiny objection…well on behalf of them I thank you for standing by Lebanon, for (whether Jij like it or not) March the 14th are part of Lebanon…

About the author and his comment, first believe has nothing to do with it. There are supposedly some facts and then you analys them. So again when I read your words I do not check who you are and what you stand for, I check your facts and your logic primary the rest is secondary. Imagine having to read only people that agree with us, excluding opinions left and right, what would we be left at the end, with the likes of Tshrinne newspaper (the official Syrian newspaper)


Mirvat

That is really sad mirvat… only listen to the people you agree with… yes it is a good way to broaden your mind and see how other people think, so maybe try to understand their action and how they think… Of course your way is better… Sorry I even proposed another point of view, who needs those in these times…In times of the one party…one religion…one dogma…one ideology... All the rest are “scum of the earth” and we are the only right ones…

Believe what you want and good for you, but I will keep on reading what you say. Most times I will not agree but hey even you could have insights from time to time.

Bytheway trying to have people stick to a proper discussion without going personal is not being defensive it is being decent.

Hilal

you do not think Bush opinion matters or deserve discussion (regardless of the guy's intellect, or what you think of him) At the end of the day he is the president of the USA and his opnion ( or at least what he says are his opnion) greatly affect the world.(let me remind you that discussing is not agreeing...)

Peace

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:17:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

Bob,
the 14th march people call about the 8th march people Iranian and Syrian agents and they call the Syrian regime men murderers, and I think the agent of a murderer is not an angel, right?
On the other hand, 8th march people tells that 14th march people are the embassies men.
What I'm trying to say that this is in everyday politics and there's nothing new in it. It is on tv very night at 8 p.m.

You gotta expect to see people defending 14 or 8. nothing to be offended of, since these people (8 and 14) are the ones affecting at the moment Lebanese politics . (same as bush)

about bush,
re-read my comment. I said it is not about reading other prospectives, it's bout promotion.
I think it will be better in a next time to bold the paragraphs u wanna put in the front or even comment on them after quoting but listing an article like this will make it a bit vague.
I don't think for example that u agree on such a thing:
"It was just 18 months ago that the democrats of the March 14 movement expelled Syria from Lebanon and rose to power, marking the apogee of the U.S. democratization project in the region"

or u will be giving credit to “embassies men” and the "scum of earth" phrase.

I have to tell u bob that ur latest posts are only around one idea: "who won? who lost? who to be blamed". nothing else. And moreover all written by one party (for those u quote)
Note here that u are being discussed but u r not discussing us (except for ziad's post).
We (mirvat, I and others) raised questions on defensive strategies, stereo types ad many other issues.

And I would like to hear ur opinion about that. :)

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:19:00 PM, Blogger Mirvat said...

here too abul hish.. good so far.. still in the september moods :)

BOB
"even you could have insights from time to time"
if that came from any other writer on this forum, i would gladly accept that they may have more insight that i do and i would take it with a smile.
but from you BOB.. now that's an insult.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:36:00 PM, Blogger BOB said...

Hilal

defending is not calling somone else "scum of the earth"
now about all the other stuff great so what you want to know?
Defensive strategy? look at Syria's, jordan's or Egypt good by me.
Steryotype? who what where?
and i prefer to deal with each subject alone centered on a concret example or issue ( that is why i bring up articles)

Mirvat

good for you

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:42:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:44:00 PM, Blogger hillz said...

ya bob, 2asdeh on the previous posts just before this.

"The scum of earth" phrases are said everyday in local news.

 
At Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:51:00 PM, Blogger BOB said...

If a wrong is done by 99% of the world it is still wrong and should not be accepted.

You let this insult pass while you comment about my post(and people are posting such articles all the day in the news!)
sorry but it is not convincing!

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:11:00 AM, Blogger hillz said...

BOB,
jij is referring to a political party.
many things were put before here referring to syrians, lahhoud, karameh,...
(excluding my opinion about them)

and iza badna nballish who let and who didn't let, then u can refer to my old posts during war where u commented and ignored pro-israelis ad other lebanese living abroad insult me. fa it's not logical either way.
We are discussng ur post. that's it.

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:38:00 AM, Blogger Sherif Nashaat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:50:00 AM, Blogger Mirvat said...

thank you sherif for your comment. that's what we've being saying all along. whenever you get the look at 'jordan and egypt' argument. the fact, as we know it, is that the arabic PEOPLE are against having peace with Israel as long as the palestinians continue to live under occupation. the 'pro-american' arabic regimes in the area are dictatorships that the US uses as a military power on a leach to oppress internal opposition same way they use israel. i remember egyptian actors being thrown in jail for taking part in plays that were critical to the government.

sherif, like i said, disregarding all these facts is basically giving away the message that we do not identify ourselves as arabs and that we are fine with being another colony. sadly some people think that. they operate out of their tribal loyalty.

Lebanon hopefully will be the last country to sign a peace treaty with Israel.

i'm hopeful sherif. the US-protected (as opposed to others) oppressive dictatorships in the ME cannot hold. the reaction that i saw to HA in the arabic street gave me hope.

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:04:00 AM, Blogger Shmulik said...

Sherif nashaat

"I don't think that Egypt has gained economically from that peace treaty"
Really, and how do you think Egypt has gained the sinai back if not through the 1979 peace treaty? Do you know how much money Egypt makes from tourism in Sinai(a lot of it from israeli tourists) every year?
You say "Egypt is selling oil". Do you know that a large part of Egypt's oil industry is IN sinai??
But off course mere economic benefits are not enough for you. You are interested in the moral side of the story. Here is a moral benefit that Egypt got: No nation has buried so many dead in fighting Israel as Egypt did, Sadat has changed that and got all his land back, what a dirty stinking failure. You can compare him to Naser the hero, who has managed to both lose Sinai and become a soviet pawn. At least Naser gave you your PRIDE back didn't he?? There is nothing in the whole wide world that disgusts me more than people who comfortably sit behind computer screens and tell other people how and why to kill each other (I am an israeli and I react the same to crazy right-wing americans for example).

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:22:00 AM, Blogger Sherif Nashaat said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:42:00 AM, Blogger Mirvat said...

thanks sherif

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 2:52:00 AM, Blogger Gosudarynya said...

Bob,

Reading an op-ed such as this one, which is free from logic or evidence and rife with the ideology so typical of the author, is not the same as believing such crap. Only a believer would continue to foist such blather on his colleagues. You claim to post articles to "discuss" them, but it appears that you are trying to convince others of the views of American neocons who live only for financial gain and/or power. Do you think another six, eight or one hundred of the same article will convince them?

Fortunately, most bloggers here are not sucked in by neocons, and polling of the Lebanese public shows the same. Neocon policy has a 0% success rate at home. The US, under neocon rule, has undergone the worst imaginable transformation of its entire domestic policy. We have twice the national debt (which had been slowly shrinking after the Balanced Budget Act of 1993). Our health care serves fewer and costs far more each year. College tuition is rising more quickly than health care premiums. Real wages continue to decline for the bottom 99% of income-earners. Bankruptcies and home foreclosures are at the highest rates ever seen. The economy, which is supposed to be wonderful but is in actuality pretty unimpressive for a boom, is judged only by corporate growth and affects stockholders and traders. Naturally, regulation of air quality, water purity and soil toxicity has all reversed. I will stop with the unending list now so as not to further bore Lebanese about the US, but I hope the point is made.

Neocons ruin every single thing they touch. That will not exclude Lebanon.

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 7:15:00 AM, Blogger jij said...

Only in Lebanon: The weakest country in the region utterly humiliates one of the strongest military forces in the world and sends it packing without any of its objectives being achieved, and a bunch of opportunistic whiners can’t stop blabbering about a defeat. As if repeating the word “defeat” long enough will change reality into their favor. It is sad that some Lebanese wanted to see Hezbollah eliminated more than the average Israeli. One word: “Tfeh”
BOB, by the way, I really recommend you start reading Bernard Lewis and Fouad Ajami. Trust me man, you are going to love it. I bet that once you that, you’ll start flooding us with a selection of their priceless gems.

 
At Sunday, September 03, 2006 4:40:00 PM, Blogger Peter said...

Bob,

Where's the anti-Hizbollah consensus that Krauthammer is so sure of? The poll reproduced in An-Nahar showed that 51% of Lebanese support Hizbollah's disarmament and 49% opposed it, a level of support that falls within the margin of error. While Christians and Druze overwhelmingly supported disarmament, only 52% of Sunnis did so, and, of course, Shia overwhelmingly opposed it. So while a narrow majority of Lebanese may support disarming Hizbollah, it's hardly an "overwhelming" one, as Krauthammer believes. In light of these divisions, and all the factors working in Hizbollah's favor (70% of Lebanon's army is Shia, how well-organized Hizbollah is, etc.) I don't see disarming Hizbollah as a viable option in the short term.

I have to believe the politicans hurt the most by the war are moderate Sunnis like Siniora and Hariri. While no doubt many Sunnis are furious with Hizbollah, many others are also furious with the United States and the UN are furious with Siniora for not standing up to them. The Harii power base is split.

 
At Monday, September 04, 2006 5:01:00 AM, Blogger Rabie_Halad said...

Dear Bob, Instead of listening to any reporter or any bias person, why don't you just take the facts that you have and work/build around them and you'll know in your eyes who won and who didn't...In my opinion this was a victory for Hezballah since they still hold the 2 soldiers, and they are still not disarmed...Israel being the power that it is: 4th largest army in the world, 6th most powerful, 2nd best special services in the world, rarely affected hezballah. Hezballah are paying damage, they made schools and hospitals during the war, they are paying people for 1 year...What did Israel do? they came in for their soldiers their soldiers are exactly where they were left before they entered. Hezballah actually made a very good name for themself in this war, and showed people that they are not Al-Qaeeda or Hamas. I think when hassan nasrallah says "If i knew that would happen i wouldn't have captured the soldiers" he means Who in the world would cause so much damage for 2 soldiers? What kind of insanity is it to attack civilization for 2 soldiers, isn't it logical to negociate?

 
At Monday, September 04, 2006 5:12:00 AM, Blogger Ingrid said...

Sorry, with so many comments I cannot read all of them so perhaps someone already mentioned that Charles Krauthammer is part of an organization called 'project for the New American Century', check out the article called 'Intelligence ala Cheney, on http://www.zenhuber.blogspot.com/, that 'project' has other members like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle etc.. so I just would not read whatever he writes, it's one of those..'consider the source' kinda thing
Ingrid

 
At Monday, September 04, 2006 11:22:00 PM, Blogger palo-girl said...

Sorry I know this is rather irrelevant, but can you guys please make your writing bolder or bigger or something? It's really painful for the eyes!!
Love your blog by the way.
Thank you

 

Post a Comment

<< Home