Some Palestinian moods...
"On August 27, 2006, Hakim Ersan, a 12 year old boy from the village of Beit Fourik near Nablus, was shot by an Israeli colonist from the Aitmar settlement near his home. Hakim was playing with two friends, ages 8-9, when the boys spotted 3 Israeli colonists approaching them. The boys began to run away, and Hakim tripped and fell; when he stood up, the colonist man, aged approximately 40, shot him through his lower back. The bullet exited through his upper groin area, and the younger boys carried him to his home. Hakim is currently in critical condition and awaiting surgery at Raffidia Hospital in Nablus; the extent of damage to his internal organs is yet undetermined.
Colonist violence is nothing new for Beit Fourik; four years ago, an elderly man was farming his land when colonists attacked him and beat him to death with a stone."
This was taken from ISF. For more examples on the injustice of the Israeli governmnt towards Palestinians check this site. More and more and more examples we have posted before as well as points and issues we have addressed.
I am not very surprised that some Israelis insist that there is nothing wrong with Israel today. There will always be people who are not necessarily capable of showing feelings of empathy to fellow human beings on the 'other' side of the conflict. Some of these people are not capable of humane feelings in the absolute sense of the word. They are driven by a need to thrive economically and politically at the expense of others. Others cannot dissociate from their inclinations towards a deeply rooted racial or religious ideology that morally allows them to diregard the wellbeing of the 'others' and to dismiss them as people of an equal social or intellectual status.
People as such are extremists and in parallel to them, we have to acknowlege that extremists exist in all religions and in all races and cultures. Needless to say that many exist who do not exhibit an active role for their mere lack of interest in being a part of any fight (the people who just want to raise their kids in peace). Hopefully many many others do actually take a stand and play a positive role in opposing and defying the oppressive rules of their government that do not morally serve them or the 'others'.
What i do not understand is that sadly there are Arabs out there (Lebanese and others, and yes Lebanese are Arabs) who have adopted the same posture as some of our Israeli friends. Even when those Arabs do not necessarily believe in fighting for their fellow Arabs (nationalism is a decision all the Arabic countries have to make combined), and regardless of how they were raised and who they identify with (based on their tribal loyalties), how can a human being be willing to make peace with a nation on his border that treat his fellow human beings with utmost disregard for all considerations of human decency, fairness, equality and freedom.
Awfully naïve of course but let's start here shall we?
If you do not have a problem with the state of Israel, where do you stand on morality?
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posted by Unknown @ 1:44 AM
21 Comments:
It's sad ya Mirvat in today's world, the standards are upside down.
But neither the long injustice, nor force can make what is right wrong, and vice versa...
they failed in the past, and will fail this time. El-ha2 ha2...forever.
naive? maybe....but time will prove it true.
ideal? maybe, but I dream no less than ideal.
A dream? maybe...but I'll always dream what I want.
Hi Mirvat and also Gosudarynya ,
See , for me it is a little bit difficult to discuss internal Israeli politics here , I mean people & orgs. like B'tselem , Mahsom Watch , Women in black , Uri Avnery. I would like only to say, that these guys are marginals and even the left-wing Meretz ( 5 seats of 120 ) doesn't support them.
Since I don't want to get Mirvat angry with my opinion about Palestinian issues ( respecting her I even don't put the word Palestinian into quotes ) , I would only like to bring her quote :
>What i do not understand is that sadly there are Arabs out there (Lebanese and others, and yes Lebanese are Arabs) who have adopted the same posture as some of our Israeli friends.
-Well , let me quote just 3 Lebanese sources (maybe not from Lebanon , but surely not from Israel - Israel does regard Lebanon as an Arab country):
A. http://www.lgic.org/en/faq.php#1 :
Are Lebanese Arabs?
Lebanon is a mix of ethnic groups. Part of the Lebanese are Arabs; 20-30% of the Lebanese in Lebanon and 10-20% of Lebanese in Diaspora are Arabs. Most of the Lebanese are the descendents of the Canaanites who inhabited Lebanon from around five thousand years ago.
They were called Phoenicians by the Greeks and Punic by the Romans. When the Muslim Arabs conquered the North of the Arabian Peninsula in the seventh century AD, they couldn’t conquer most of Lebanon due to its mountainous nature.
Some Arabs settled in coastal cities and mixed with the inhabitants while some of the Phoenicians converted to Islam, which made them Muslims not Arabs, i.e they changed their religion not ethnicity.
The Canaanites/Phoenicians, the Arabs, and the Syriac-Arameans are the three major ethnic groups in Lebanon. Armenians, Greeks, Hebrews, Assyrians, Kurds, Persians and other groups form the rest of the Lebanese community.
B. http://www.cedarland.org/identity.html
A great deal of debate has gone on regarding the identity of the Lebanese, many state that the Lebanese are Arabs and that Lebanon is an Arab state, whilst many argue that this is not the case, that the Lebanese are not Arab.
C.http://www.aina.org/guesteds/20060210113623.htm
We are Lebanese-Americans, Assyrian-Americans, Kurds-Americans, Aramaic-Americans, and some are Arab-Americans. Therefore, the inclusive, sensitive, and politically correct term to use when referring to all these groups is the Middle Eastern-Americans. Thus, we ask Mr. Zogby not to label us according to what suits his interest, for we have already labeled ourselves each according to his/her ethnic background.
End of quotes .
Well Mirvat and Gosudarynya , you both live in USA and so do some of my friends and relatives. To my best knowledge , Jews and Lebanese have good relations in USA and Canada.
The problem with Israeli peace makers is that they have no vision. I say send Bar Refaeli (google her for pics) to Nasrallah and Assad for one night. I can guarantee they’ll be talking differently about Israel the next morning. Let Nasrallah pay for the limo. Let Assad pay for dinner. Let Israeli tax payers pay for Bar’s mental health care in the next 5 years. Every super model and miss universe say their goal is world peace. I say, go girls. You’ll bring the peace, I’ll bring the wine bottle and condoms.
Emil,
Are you trying to educate the Lebanese about their own history by browsing the internets and then copying and plastering?
Does your condescension have no limits?
Do you have any inkling as to how foolish your comment is?
Are other Israelis just as clueless about Lebanon and the history of its "arab" identity? Or is it just a personal phenomenon?
Do tell ... and forgive my tone ...
hey hashem, nshallah kheir eh?
Gosudarynya, thank you for your comment. i enjoyed uri avenery's article as i do most his writings. i'm sure the article would be a nice rebuttal to the previous opinions presented in the previous post. the dynamics in the country in terms of causes is surely different than 82, HA are lebanese. back then it was easier in the confusion of the PLO burden (when it got to oppose the lebanese interests on an internal level) for certain groups to go as far as being a proxy for israel against the presence of a palestinian resistance in lebanon.
if had hoped against all odds that this ideology is long gone. HA are lebanese and this is a completely different issue now. lebanese have to have a clear idea on where they stand from the arabic world and where they stand from israel. during the war, people keep a united front. i understand that now is the aftermath but i would like it for once if people tried to decide on a their position from israel in regards to the way this country treats the palestinians.. forget they're arabs call them anything.. how can they trust a country that has the capacity to treat people of their same race for once with such degradation, in many instances, based on feelings of racism..
hi emil,
so these people a a minority, hopefully they'll get louder and affect more people around them yes?
lebanese, indeed a phoenicians who are originally canaanites and these, though not descendants of arabs, did intermarry with the arabs to the point where it became impossible to tell the difference. skipping to modern history, the maronites in lebanon wanted to protect their power in lebanon as a minority in the arab world and that's why they hesitated to consider lebanon aranbic. but hey, what is it then? european? to me if you speak arabic you're arabic.
as for living in the US.. lebanese and any race and religion are good friends anywhere!! this is about politics right? has nothing to do with a hate for a people..we have nothing against jews.. we are against the current policies of israel to put it in very mild terms so you won't get mad :)
Hi , apokraphyte
No way I try to teach Lebanese people their history.
I brought links and copied & pasted very short passages in order to show that there is an argument , whether Lebanon should be an Arab country or not. I admit , that until the last conflict I considered all the people of Lebanon as Arabs , although from different faiths ,and was very surprised to know about the issue.
The odd thing is that in Israel Lebanon i s considered by almost anyone as an Arab country , even a little bit different ( no desert , 18 religious communities etc.).
I wish to have a quick peace in order to maintain a lot of cultural ties in order that every Israeli will know more about Lebanon.
One of the reasons why the question of Arabness was surprising to me is that in Israel there are Druze , Christian and Bedouin minorities. Although they preserve their uniqueness - they consider themselves Arabs.
And why does the question of "Arabness" bothers me ? 1st of all it's a little hard to be the only non-Arab minority in the area. 2nd of all I found an explanation of ties between Israel and Maronites.
3d and most important : Mirvat and others bring a reason for not signing a peace agreement with Israel , which is the Arab solidarity. And I ask again : Egypt is an Arab country (5% non-Arabs ) , Jordan is 100% Arab . So do Qatar and Tunisia. So why Lebanon should be the last , if a very significant part of its people doesn't consider themselves as Arabs at all.
And the last but not the least : earlier I mentioned Druzes and Bedouins. As a jew , I'm proud of those citizens , whose men serve in the IDF and turn to be excellent soldiers. The same is to be said about most of Arab Christians . I consider those guys as better Israelis than people like Uri Avneri , Mahsom watch , Yesh Gvul , who are jews by birth but ... well I don't want to anger Mirvat and others .
your last sentence is not for me to frown upon. you're free to define your nationalism as you please.
same goes for us.
some people stick to the nonarab identity as a way of a self-preservation especially in the past. we're over this phase.
so to answer your question, it's not parts of lebanese who are phoenicians for example, not one religion or sect.. it's a large part including muslims.. these phoenicians integrated with the arabs and became one.
so yes lebanon is arabic.
to answer your question about egypt for once, please refer to sherif nashat's comment in the previous post, i'll let an egyptian answer that. as for jordan, hashemites are historically allies with israel. jordan, in your leaders' words, has been a historical ally for israel.
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Mobilize for the 4th National & International week Against The Apartheid Wall!
Called for by the Palestinian Grassroots Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign.
Every year in some 30 countries all over the world, movements and organizations speak out and protest against the Wall and Israeli Occupation and Apartheid during this Week of Palestinian resistance and global action. We call on you to stand with the Palestinian people and join the Global Week of Action:
Show solidarity with the Palestinian struggle against the Apartheid Wall
Expose Israeli colonialism, apartheid and occupation
End global support for Israeli Apartheid Strengthen the Movement to Isolate Apartheid Israel and organize action in response to the Palestinian call for boycott, divestment and sanctions!
As the ghetto walls close around our people, the voice of the Palestinian and Arab resistance continues to echo within the Bantustans and beyond. Like every year since bulldozers started to level our land for the Wall’s path, the Week against the Apartheid Wall (November 9-16) will unite Palestinian communities struggling against the land grab and expulsion in mass protests. Under the rubble of our homes, on the fields still bearing fruit behind the wall, within the besieged villages and the ailing city of Jerusalem, Palestinian existence has been transformed into an act of daily resistance.
5 years after the Occupation started its destruction of our lands for the Wall, 2 years after the International Court of Justice called for the dismantling if the Wall.
We will stand steadfast against the Apartheid Wall, an enormous monument to Zionist racism, a colonial edifice that encages Palestinians and a desperate attempt to drive us from our lands.
Full artilce at:
StopTheWall.org
http://www.stopthewall.org/downloads/nov99.html
You can read other artilces like this on The Respect Supporters Blog (George Galloway is the UK Respect MP)at:
http://respectuk.blogspot.com/
Neil Wiliams
Respect Blog (UK)
http://respectuk.blogspot.com/
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Although I vote for an Israeli left wing party I must say one thing about the ‘occupied territories’:
I have a cute son about 2.5 years old. Sometimes in his kindergarten when he plays with 2 toys, another kid comes demanding one of his toys. There are many toys there but you know kids… Sometimes I tell him to give the other kid one of his toys just in order to avoid the conflict. The fact that I’m ready to give one of my (his) toys to another kid, doesn’t mean it was his in the first place. The ‘occupied territories’ should be called the ‘disputed territories’. We believe it’s ours, you believe it’s yours. The fact that some of us (myself included) are ready to give them up as a part of a peace agreement does not mean it was yours in the first place.
p.s.
You’ll be amazed how a kindergarten can serve as a micro cosmos for so many other issues.
Peace.
I'm with Shannon.
Hi everybody ,
Thank you all for replies. Although it took me some time to prepare the answer , I feel it as necessary.
So ladies first :
Mirvat , I accept your opinion about the Arabness of Lebanon. I just wanted to show , that there are others who don’t agree . There ( to my best knowledge ) is no dispute in the Arab republic of Egypt , Syrian Arab republic or Libyan Arab Jamahiriyya.
You tell , that for you – if somebody speaks Arabic he is an Arab. What would you say about the IRA and the identity of people of Ireland , who speak English? Are they Englishmen ?
But that is not the main issue. You ( and PM Siniora ) tell , that Lebanon will be the last to sign a peace treaty. So it is nessesary to point , that in 1996 Assad the father almost signed the peace treaty. That was even before the peace talks for a final agreement with Arafat in 2000 , which gave nothing.
The issue was the Sea of Galilee and Golan. Israel was ready in principle to withdraw from Golan to International border line ( pre 1948 colonial border ) i.e. the Sea of Galilee stays inside Israel. But Assad demanded the armistice borders 1949-1967 , which include Syrian access to the only major water source of Israel. The difference was about 100 meters (!) in a strip of max.10 km. long.
So imagine , that solution is found ( dutyfree zone , joint souvereignity , lend for 99 years etc. ) and Syria falls in love with USA ( remember 1990 when USA permitted Syria to occupy Lebanon in exchange to anti-Iraqi coalition) . Peace treaty Israel – Syria. My question : would Lebanon wait for Palestinians ? I bet no !
Lebanon haven’t sign yet a peace agreement with Israel because of Syria and not because of Palestinians !
Of course there are people like Sherif Nashaat who would say , that Egypt had made a mistake signing the peace treaty. There are also people in Israel ( not me ! ) who would say that Begin was a traitor by “selling” Sinai , and there was better to stay with Sinai without the peace with Egypt . But the history is the best Judge. Technically , there is a peace already from 1975. So the state of Israel was in state of a war with Egypt 27 years until 1975 , 4 years was a peace de-facto , and for another 27 years there is a formal peace and growing economic ties .
BTW , Sherif got an answer in the previous post. I agree with that answer , adding that of course Egypt is far from democracy but if we compare Egypt ( and Jordan ) with Libya , Syria , Saudi Arabia or Sudan – the regime of this country is quite benign and this is the reason for vast foreign investments.
As to Neil Williams and other British “peacemakers” : Hey guys , your govt. ( together with France - 1916 ) created artificial states , tossed borders according to your interests. Even if Britain had some credit for Balfour declaration ( a private letter !) , it lost it after the 3 white papers which prevented the rescue of jews in ww2. I’m personally convinced , that Britain brought nothing good to the Middle East . It has to be remembered , that the first 2 repatriation waves of jews ( aliya ) , the first kibbutzes , the first Hebrew cities ( even Tel-Aviv -1909 ) were founded during the Turkish Ottoman rule , and the process could run further without any interference of Britain , that of course looked only for its interests.
And thanks to John Smith and Shannon . It would be worth mention , that a lot of people in Israel vote left parties ( like Meretz ) because of social , anti-clerical and environmental issues , rather then their political views. Even if so , Meretz has only 5 seats out of 120. Although some Israelis ( incl. Me ) consider Avoda as a left party , it takes part in the government. It’s another proof of marginality of persons , like Uri Avnery , Tali Fahima ( the mistress of the terrorist Zakariya Zbeidi) , women in black etc.
And finally , I would like to bring a link to an article of Lebanese citizen , Michel Behe. http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1479
I made a copy of it inside my blog.
Wishing peace to all ,
Emil
emil,
Lebanon didn't sign a peace with israel because of Lebanese not because of syria.
We feel that we have at least an ethical commitment towards the palesinians although of what hapened during the civil war and despite our political opinions of what happened during the lebanese war.
Yeh we know about all the internal clashes between arabs and between the Lebanese themselves, but that doesn't make the palestinian case un just. And untill final and complete peace between palestine and israel and after the return of all the arabic lands taken after the 67 (despite our opinion about the regimes and how they handle such problems), Lebnaon won't sign a peace treaty with israel and people won't normalize the relations.
Emil,
1) "the regime of this country [egypt] is quite benign and this is the reason for vast foreign investments"
lol ... yeah, American tax payers keep Mubarak afloat cause he is such a sweetheart ... Really, Emil, I mean come on ...
2) Are you aware that most of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are 48ers? Does this give you some clue about why Lebanon will be the last country to sign a peace deal with Israel? Take them back and disarm the IDF in northern Israel and I bet you would have a willing partner in Lebanon ...
3) I would agree there is hardly a political party in Israel that makes its way by offering an alternative foreign policy. I guess that it is because its relations with its neighbors have been so successful ...
4) What do you expect Arabs to think of the state of Israel when the Minister for the Diaspora calls for the immigration of over 1 million Russians by 2010 (or 9 -- I forget) while categorically refusing the right of return to Palestinians and expanding the settlements in the West Bank -- love that "thickening" expression ...
5) Please re-read the history of the first Israelis. They understood well that the Arabs would have to be idiots to recognize Israel and sign a peace agreement with the Jewish state. If anything, rejectionists such as Hizbullah, are following the strategic logic of the Zionist success ...
6) Also some attention to the American-Israeli security plan would be in order. You know full well that the policy has been uber-deterrence, where Israel remains more powerful than the collective might of all its neighbors ... Do you think this militarism has had a beneficial effect on Israel? Have you noticed the sea change in US-Israel relations since the early 1970s when Israeli belligerence became a cash cow for US defense contractors? Does that alarm you? Is it any surprise that Israel has turned toward unilateralism and fortress Israel?
7) Finally, I hope you are aware that identities -- whether ethnic or religious -- are social fictions that mutate according to historically-contigent social, economic and political forces.
I would add that Israel has undergone a profound demographic shifts in the last 15 years, the political ramifications of which are still unknown, but one can bet that with the dramatic increase in ethnic and religious diversity and the gradual shrinking of the role of the state in the Israeli economy, Israeli politics -- at least on the national level -- will focus, like other states, on cultural and religious issues and foreign "threats." This, I think, is why the evacuation of the settlements in the West Bank, is a virtual non-starter in Israel. It would focus political attention on what exactly Israel is (does it have borders, and if so where?), what does Zionism mean, what is a Jew ... etc ...
These are highly contentious issues in Israel and in the worldwide Jewish community and that the political class in Israel -- on the national level -- chooses to avoid them by focusing on "Israel's enemies" is highly predictable, as similar phenomena are observed elsewhere.
Please notice how Olmert is trying to resolve his current difficulties over Lebanon by renouncing convergence and authorizing the expansion of settlements in the Jerusalem area.
I would agree that for the majority of Israelis the hope is normalization or peace, but to suggest that the ideology or political strategy of Israel's neighbors and enemies is morally inferior suggests a profound unwillingness to examine what might be going on inside the region's only super-power ...
You know well that Israel can say "we want peace ..." It is not that hard when you can annihilate your foes and your regime is invulnerable ... Such is not possible for Arab states, parties or movements ...
I dont care if Israel wants to advance its interests in the ME, but the moralizing is hypocritical, avoids the real history of the region and makes real peace impossible.
hey shannon
i don't know how well acquainted you are with the history of the region. believe me as lebanese we are well aware of the fact that more than one side is needed to start a struggle. but you also have to understand that we do not hold israel to a higher moral standard for the mere fact that we're well aware of the israeli policies since 1978 in lebanon, (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2815363660306953223&q=the+war+of+lebanon+episode). we had a close experience first hand. a quick remark, we do not accuse israel of immoral war crimes based on what we see on the news but based on what we lived. israel used illegal weapons including cluster bombs even in 1982, in fact the vaccum bombs were first being tested in beirut.
when you see this episode, and if interested in knowing more you can watch the full documentary, you can see the recurrent pattern of the israeli military and political practices in the region.
although i can't hold only israel to be responsible for the war in lebanon, i hold it fully responsible for the palestinian situation today. you have to have a distinction between an action and a reaction. you're right in saying that the cycle has to stop but how will it stop when the issue remains the same. during the PLO days, the principle was to liberate palestine. we are all fully aware that this idea is long gone. you know very well that the palestinians are asking to end the occupation of gaza and the west bank based of the UN resolution and the 2 state solution.
also from the events in the previous invasion of lebanon and specifically the events presented in this episode of the lebanese war, you can see how sharon's stubborness and how the israeli arrogance led to the birth of the lebanese resistance even after the PLO completely withdrew from lebanon.
the point is that we paid the price and still did years after the first invasion in 1978. when you do someone wrong, the least you can do is to undo it. instead israel never fully withdrew from lebanon and for the mere fact that it's militarily superior continued its operations in the south even after 2000 when it was forced to leave. this attitude is what started the resistance in the first place. even when all of lebanon was not ready to harbor the palestinian resistance anymore, including the far left, israel's actions against the lebanese led to the only natural reaction and that is the creation of the lebanese resistance.
the same goes for palestine today and this is where hamas comes in.
again the cycle of violence is not the answer but while israel had the chance to really withdraw from gaza and the west bank and accept the democratically elected government in gaza, it started a war on lebanon and destroyed it and started all these raids and massacres in palestine.
i don't hold the israeli command neither the government at a higher moral standard, i have lived and witnessed to many injustices and traumas and disasters to do so, i hold the people at a higher moral standard than their governments.
"If you do not have a problem with the state of Israel, where do you stand on morality?"
Mirvat, I just wonna say that the way you ended your article is excellent.
thank you jooj
sad to see that nothing gets through..
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